Isaiah’s Prophecies: How History and Structure Reveal God’s Vision w/ Dr Paul Wegner

Johnny Ova: Hey everybody, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Dig In Podcast. I'm your host, Pastor Johnny Ova of the Sound of Heaven Church. Today we have an amazing special guest with us, and that is the great Dr. Paul Wegner.

Dr. Paul Wegner: I guess I won't say that.

Johnny Ova: Well, I'm gonna say it. I'm gonna call you the great Dr. Paul Wegner. Thank you so much for joining us today. I know this is going to be a tremendous blessing for everybody who's watching.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Johnny Ova: Let's get started with a little bit about yourself. Were you born and raised in a Christian home, and what was that point that led you to say, this is the area I want to dedicate my life to?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Well, I grew up in a pastor's home in Iowa. Charles City was where it was. This can sound really bad, but I didn't think my father was a very good example of a pastor. So when I went into the ministry, I wanted to be a good pastor. I'm sure that's a pretty bad motivation for starting, but it changed after that. Then in seminary, my last year, I was doing a ThM, which is an advanced degree after the MDiv, and at that point I got to teach Hebrew. I just fell in love with teaching Hebrew and the Old Testament. That's how I really came into it. I decided to go this route, and when I was doing my PhD, the guy I was working with was a specialist in Isaiah. So that's where I did my doctoral work too.

Johnny Ova: It's an honest one. That's good. I saw that you wrote the introduction and commentary on Isaiah for the Tyndale commentaries. What better guest to have on to talk about Isaiah with me today?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Yeah. Well, it's a book I really enjoy, that's for sure.

Johnny Ova: I listened to a bunch of your podcasts while I was prepping for you, and your enthusiasm and the passion you show about your work really drew me in. I thought, man, I really hope I can get Dr. Wegner on the show.

Dr. Paul Wegner: That's wonderful. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Johnny Ova: So why Isaiah? Let's start there and introduce Isaiah to people. Who wrote Isaiah, what's the time frame? Let's set the scene a little bit.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Why Isaiah? I realized there were some difficulties in the book that I didn't understand. Like chapter 7, verse 14: I had no idea how Matthew could pick that up and apply it to Jesus when in the context it looked like it wasn't referring to him. That was a dilemma, and when you do your dissertation, a question you can't answer is a really good way to start. So I did my work on messianic expectation in the book of Isaiah, and I got to deal with a lot of those prophecies about how God is working out to have a Messiah come. That's the part that's exciting to me, and that's how I got started.

Dr. Paul Wegner: I do believe Isaiah wrote the book, all of it. I believe it's in about the 700s. There are several things in the book that help us know the date. In chapter 1, I think it's verse 7 or 8, it talks about their cities being burned and destroyed and only Jerusalem standing. There's only one time in their history when that could have happened, and that's 701. Then chapter 6 talks about his calling, and that sounds like it's way before that, around 740 BC. So we've already got a time frame of over 40 years in the first chapters of the book. One of the questions I'm sure you'll want to know is how the history fits into the book. What I believe is that if you actually know the history, you'll know why Isaiah's saying what he's saying. It makes total sense then. But if you don't know the history, a lot of things just don't make any sense. Knowing the history helps it fit together and gives you a very good understanding of the book.

Johnny Ova: I could not agree more, because these people were going through real-life situations and circumstances. Many Christians have the idea that God dictated the Bible and threw it down like a paper airplane. But these were real people during real times going through real experiences. So set the stage. Talk about the history of Isaiah. What were they going through, politically, culturally, the things that shaped the messages and the prophecies?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Probably one of the biggest things happening is that Assyria is coming across and doing serious damage to the country. When Isaiah gets his call, Assyria is just becoming a major player. Tiglath-Pileser III was the first one to make Assyria a really strong nation. Here's Israel, a pretty small country when you think about it, and here's the Assyrian Empire with vast areas of land. They're scared to death. That's one of the reasons King Ahaz in chapter 7 is so nervous about the Assyrians coming. He's a little country going against this huge nation, so he's trying to get everybody around him on his side so he has even a chance of fighting back. That's the context. Assyria is growing, poor Israel is really at a disadvantage, and the king is probably scared to death.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Now, that's where the book was written, but once you get into chapter 40, it goes clear into the future, to them coming back from the exile. The book hardly mentions them going into exile, and chapter 40 talks about them returning. Remember, if Isaiah is about 700, they don't go into exile until the 600s and the beginning of the 500s. That's about 150 years before it starts happening, and he's talking about them returning from it. There's only one verse, at the end of chapter 39, that actually says you're going to be sent into captivity. Sure enough, it happens, and the whole last part of the book talks about that.

Johnny Ova: So they saw what was coming, and they kind of knew what was about to take place.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Yeah, and I'm sure they're scared to death, because it's a huge nation coming against them.

Johnny Ova: So we've got the context. What did life look like in Judah during Isaiah's time? What was day-to-day life like?

Dr. Paul Wegner: My guess is things were okay as long as Assyria stayed in the background and didn't do a lot. They're charging tribute and that kind of thing, but they're not having a big influence until about 701. In 701 Judah rebels against the Assyrians, and that's when they come in. At the beginning of Isaiah's ministry, Assyria is a growing power, a threat, but nothing to worry about immediately. Starting in 701, Sennacherib is coming through and doing serious damage. In 701 he destroys every city in Judah except Jerusalem, it says. All the others are destroyed. So by 701 it's a damaged country.

Johnny Ova: Terrifying. I could see that for sure.

Dr. Paul Wegner: So here's God sending Isaiah to give them a message of, at least it sounds like to me, hope. Most of it is quite encouraging. There's quite a bit of judgment in there too, but there's also quite a bit of hope at the end, and starting in chapter 40 there's significant hope. So the question is, why would God send a prophet to tell his people what's going to happen 150 years in the future? That's one of the biggest questions about the book of Isaiah. I think the answer is to let them know God's still got a plan for them. They're not going to be totally destroyed. God is going to take them into exile, get them cleaned up, or at least bring a remnant out, and then bring back a remnant that wants to serve him.

Johnny Ova: And what brought them into this place in the first place? It seems like they're reaping a lot of what they sowed. Then there's the hopelessness of man: did I make a mistake so bad that we've ruined everything? That's where Isaiah comes in, like you said. God still has a plan.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Yeah. When they're sitting in captivity, I'm sure they're wondering, does God care about us anymore? So this message comes: don't worry, I've got a plan. I'm going to clean you up and bring back a remnant that actually will serve me. I put the title of Isaiah as, will Israel ever repent? Because at some point you look at him and you're going, will these guys ever get it? And I think the answer is yes. But it's going to be a long time, and it's going to take a lot of work on God's part to bring them back.

Johnny Ova: Wow. There's also a lot of talk about how Isaiah is written and sectioned off. It's said to have multiple sections. Why does the way it's organized matter?

Dr. Paul Wegner: The major break is between chapter 39 and 40, and that one is so clear. Remember, he tells them at the very end of chapter 39 that they're going to go off to Babylon. Then there's a gap of 150 years, and the next thing you hear is that they're coming back from Babylon. That has caused scholars to think this clearly has to be written by two different people. I understand why they argue that, but I also think that if you do that, you've removed part of the logic of why the book even makes sense to the people it's written to. It's written to those people so they have hope, so they know God hasn't forgotten them or let them just wander away. He's going to come and get them and bring them back. In my mind, that's the hope.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Now let me tell you about the sections. That's the major break. There are three introductions in the book that I think are really helpful for us to know. Look at chapter 1, verse 1. I'm going to read it to you. "The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz concerning Judah and Jerusalem, which he saw during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah." That sounds like a standard introduction for a prophet. But then you go to chapter 2 and you've got almost the same thing: "The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem." I'm going, we already knew it was him. What's going on? Then in chapter 13 you've got another introduction: "The oracle concerning Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw." I think the answer is that these are introductions to the major sections of the book.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Chapter 6 says his call is about 740 BC. The last event Isaiah probably would have been alive for is about 681 or so, because it talks about Esarhaddon coming into the land. If that's true, that's at least 40 years before 701 and another 20 afterward, so Isaiah is prophesying for about 60 years. You can imagine there will be different prophecies and different parts, and at some point somebody has to put it all together. I don't know that Isaiah has to, but somebody does. If it's over 60 years, no wonder you have what look like major changes in subject and major sections.

Dr. Paul Wegner: So I argue that chapter 1 is pretty much an introduction to the whole book. Chapters 2 through 4 have what I call an envelope pattern. It talks about the future at the start of chapter 2 and again in chapter 4, and everything in between is the present time, so it has bookends on it. That's the second section. Then chapters 5 to 12 look to me like a palistrophe, balanced units. It starts with a song and ends with a song. It has woe oracles at the beginning and at the end. Then you have what I call uplifted hand oracles, one in the front and another in the back. Right in the middle is Isaiah's call, usually called the Isaianic memoir because most of it is in the first person. So you've got a really interesting structure. Chapter 1 talks about the bad present, what they're like now, but by chapter 12 they're praising God for delivering them. And the reason it happened is because God sent Isaiah with a message to deliver them. So that's another section.

Johnny Ova: Are there historical references outside the book of Isaiah that refer to a lot of these things?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Yeah. We know Sennacherib came through and started to take Jerusalem in 701, and he gets stopped. It says in chapter 38 that God sent an angel who destroyed 185,000 of their soldiers. We know from the Assyrian records that they actually came through. What we don't have is a record saying the Assyrians got wiped out, and of course the Assyrians aren't going to put that in their history. They do talk about taking captives and that kind of thing. There's a key phrase: it says they had Hezekiah shut up like a bird in a cage. But that's all. It doesn't say they took the city and destroyed it, and I think the reason is because they didn't.

Dr. Paul Wegner: One other thing that's really interesting: in the Assyrian palace of Sennacherib, he has the conquest of Lachish on the walls instead of the conquest of Jerusalem. I'm going, wait a minute, Jerusalem is the city they want to conquer. Lachish is a fortress city. It's not the most important. So I'm surprised that in his palace he has the conquering of Lachish instead of Jerusalem, and I think it's because he didn't conquer Jerusalem. They can make it look really good, but they can't lie in their histories, because the people would catch them on that. That's part of why I land on 701. There's the big question of whether that really happened, and I think there's good evidence that suggests it did. A lot of it is evidence from silence, but it's pretty important that they would have put Jerusalem on the walls of a palace built in commemoration of the battle if they took it. I don't think they did.

Johnny Ova: That's fascinating. I've never heard that before. That's amazing.

Dr. Paul Wegner: I didn't get all the way through the sections, sorry. The next section is chapter 13. Remember, chapter 13 starts with an introduction, and I think it goes all the way to 39. Then from chapter 40 you don't have three introductions, but you do have three refrains at the end of each major section. I think the first section is chapter 40 through 48. Let me read it to you, because it's kind of interesting. At the end of chapter 48 it says, "There is no peace for the wicked, says the Lord." Then at the end of chapter 57 it says, "There is no peace, says my God, for the wicked." The only difference is the name for God. Everything else is almost exact.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Then you go to the very last chapter, chapter 66, and it says, "Then they will go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against me. For their worm will not die and their fire will not be quenched, and they will be an abhorrence to all mankind." So it's almost like a crescendo saying there's no peace for the wicked, only in different words. I didn't think I really understood it until I did the commentary. This is talking about an eternal kind of punishment. Notice it says their worm will not die. The only reason the worm would die is if it didn't have food anymore. If the bodies are still there, there will be enough food so the worm will not die. Then it says their fire will not be quenched. Again, the only reason a fire goes out is if there isn't any fuel left. It's always going to have fuel. So this is talking about an ongoing punishment, an ongoing kind of destruction. In my mind, those are the major parts of the book. Does that all make sense to you?

Johnny Ova: It makes a lot of sense. Seeing the different introductions and how the chapters are separated really puts it together nicely.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Oh good. That's the big picture. Then in each of the little parts, it's kind of amazing. Isaiah tells you a story, then he tells you the same story again with a lot more detail, then he tells it again with more detail still. He goes over and over the punishment they're going to receive if they don't turn back to God.

Johnny Ova: And of course he's giving them hope too. Because if you're stuck in this right now, it's like, what do I have to keep going for?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Yes. I'm sure they were discouraged. In fact, we know they were. There's a song about them sitting in Babylon and weeping when their captors mocked them, saying, sing for us one of the songs of Zion. The songs of Zion were songs about how great Zion was because God was in her midst. So they're mocking them: sing us one of those songs now that you're sitting here in Babylon and know we've destroyed you. It's an interesting song.

Johnny Ova: Let's go to the predictions of Jesus. Many Christians read Isaiah as directly predicting Jesus. How do you approach messianic prophecies in Isaiah from a scholarly standpoint?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Okay. You may not like this, because I'm going to take away a prophecy that most people believe is a prophecy, but I'm not sure it is. The first one is Isaiah 7. Let me get to it so I can read it, because I want your people to be able to know what passages we're talking about. Almost everybody counts this one because it's quoted in the New Testament. So the question is, how come it's quoted there? I'll start at verse 10. "Then the Lord spoke again to Ahaz, saying, Ask a sign for yourself from the Lord your God; make it deep as Sheol or high as heaven. But Ahaz said, I will not ask, nor will I test the Lord. Then he said, Listen now, O house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will try the patience of my God as well?"

Dr. Paul Wegner: I'm going to stop there a minute. I don't understand Ahaz. God is giving him the chance to ask for any sign he wants. God knows poor Ahaz is in a terrible position. He's got the Assyrians getting ready to come down, and his neighboring countries want him on their side so they can fight the Assyrians. I think he's scared and doesn't want to do it. So God steps in to give him the encouragement he needs, and instead of taking a sign, he says, I won't test God. You're testing God more by not taking the sign, it would seem. God gives him the opportunity to ask for anything, as high as heaven or as deep as Sheol. I would have said, wipe out those two nations on my side. He didn't even have the faith to do that.

Dr. Paul Wegner: So now God says, if you won't ask for a sign, I'm going to give you one. "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call his name Immanuel. He will eat curds and honey at the time he knows enough to refuse evil and choose good. For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken." Verse 17 is also part of it: "The Lord will bring on you, on your people, and on your father's house such days as have never come since the day that Ephraim separated from Judah, the king of Assyria." So God has warned him: if you won't take a sign, I'll give you one, and it's not one you're going to like. It's bad news. But even there, there's a little hope.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Let's go back to "behold, the virgin will be with child." It goes on to say that before the boy knows enough to refuse evil and choose good, the two kings you dread will be forsaken. The two kings he dreads are Syria and Israel, the two northern countries. So it sounds like a child will be born at that time that Ahaz will be able to see, and when he sees him, he'll know: don't worry, God's giving you this sign, but also know the Assyrians are going to come. So it's a child being born, and it seems to me it has to be in the time of Isaiah. There are more hints too. First, that word for virgin is almah, young woman. A young woman could be a virgin, but she doesn't have to be. You can have old virgins too, right? The two words overlap, but they're not exactly equal. That's one reason I think Matthew can pick it up, because there's some overlap in those words.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Second, it says the virgin will be with child. That means she's already pregnant. It's an adjective saying this woman is pregnant. She's going to bear a son and call his name Immanuel. So it seems to me it's telling us about a child born at that time as a sign to Ahaz, not one born 700 years later. Ahaz needs to know right now what's going to happen. But then the question is, how can Matthew pick that up?

Johnny Ova: Why would he pick that up?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Let's go to Matthew 1. I'll start at verse 20 so you get the context. Joseph was going to put Mary away secretly. "But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins. Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel, which translated means, God with us." So he's picking it up.

Dr. Paul Wegner: There are a couple of keys you need to know. Notice he uses the word fulfill: "all this took place to fulfill." The word fulfill in Greek often has the idea of filling up. When Jesus is at the wedding at Cana, he tells the servants to go fill the jugs with water. It's the same word, pleroo. It means to fill up. I think he's telling them this is to fill up what was said by the prophet back in Isaiah's time. So the first thing is that the word fulfill does not always mean this equals that. It can, but it doesn't always. In this case I don't think it can, because we saw it was already fulfilled back there. So I think he's filling it with more meaning, and then it makes more sense.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Notice too it says, "behold, a virgin." In Greek this is the word parthenos, and parthenos usually means virgin. So he's taken a Hebrew word that meant young woman, with the possibility of meaning virgin, and now he's picking it up and really saying it's a virgin. Even parthenos has some flexibility, but this one is clear, because he says Joseph kept her a virgin until the son was born. And she asks the angel, how is this possible? Joseph knows he has never touched her, and then the angel says the Holy Spirit has done this. So we need to know that pleroo means to fill up with meaning.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Now I almost feel like I have to prove what I just told you, because it's really important. Let me show you another one in the same context. Matthew 2, verse 14: "So Joseph got up and took the child and his mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: Out of Egypt I called my son." There's that word again. That's a quote from Hosea 11:1, and in Hosea 11:1 he's calling Israel out of Egypt. His son is Israel, and that passage clearly says Israel. So how can that happen? My answer is that pleroo means to fill up. Israel was brought out of Egypt. That happened. But now it's filled up with even more meaning.

Dr. Paul Wegner: There's one more I want to show you that doesn't have the word fulfill. Chapter 2, verse 5: "They said to him, In Bethlehem of Judea, for this is what has been written by the prophet: And you, Bethlehem, land of Judah, are by no means least among the leaders of Judah; for out of you shall come forth a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel." That's Micah 5:2, and I think Micah 5:2 is a direct fulfillment. There's nobody in Micah's time who is this ruler coming out to shepherd his people. So we've got two different kinds of prophecy in the book of Matthew itself: ones that use the word pleroo, which means to fill it up and add more meaning to it, and ones that are direct fulfillments, which say this is what has been written by the prophet. Is that okay?

Johnny Ova: Very interesting. It makes sense. Let me ask you this, and I know the books you've written, The Journey from Texts to Translations, so you're the perfect guy to ask. Isaiah is writing this book with the understanding, I'm writing this for my people, to give them hope. He's not writing it thinking, man, I hope 700 years later these people pick this up and understand what I meant. Correct?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Exactly. When Isaiah is writing, he's got a message for his people. But that's not all. I think he understands that this is God's word and it could have ramifications for the future too. When he gets to chapter 40, nobody living in Isaiah's time is going to be around for those things. But that doesn't mean he won't write them, because he needs to let them know there is hope and they will come back. So Isaiah is mainly writing to his people. But he's writing to a nation, and this is where I've had this discussion with a major scholar, and I don't know if I've gotten through to him yet. Yes, prophecy is usually written to the people in their context. But if it's to a nation, there will be somebody alive when it's fulfilled in the future. God can give a prophecy about the future, and there will be somebody there who knows it took place, because it's a nation. It's not just to a person alive in his time. It's to a nation that will be alive for hundreds of years.

Johnny Ova: And on Matthew's side, the question that comes to my head is, out of all the verses, why would he pick this one and relate it to Mary?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Remember, Matthew is written to Jewish people who already had a good understanding of the Old Testament. He's saying, remember that prophecy back there? It was totally fulfilled. I'm going to fill it up with more meaning, and now it's going to be applied to a new situation and a new person. And look at what it says about him: he's going to be called Immanuel, God with us. There's nobody that's more God with us than Jesus, right? So he can take that prophecy that was fulfilled in the Old Testament and almost blow it up and say, watch what I can do in the New Testament. I can show Jesus fulfilling this in a way it never could have been fulfilled in the Old Testament, by taking the structure that was already created. I call it a prophetic pattern that Matthew can pick up and add more meaning to and make even better. I think it's exciting.

Johnny Ova: That's great. So let's pull this in for today. What can modern Christians learn from Isaiah?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Can I give you a few more prophecies first? Sorry. In chapter 9 there's one I think is so clear that it has to be a future person. It couldn't be a near fulfillment at all. It has to be Jesus coming later.

Johnny Ova: No, go ahead. I want to respect your time, but I'm here all day.

Dr. Paul Wegner: It's because of what's said in chapter 9, verse 1. "But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish." It just got done talking about how bad it will be for Israel in chapter 8, verse 22. They'll have gloom and darkness and anguish, and they will be driven away into darkness. I think he's telling them you're going into exile. Then he says, "there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish. In earlier times he treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt." Zebulun and Naphtali are both northern tribes, and the time he treated them with contempt is when they went into captivity to Assyria. "But later on he shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles." So he's saying there will be a time when he restores them. But after 722, when the northern kingdom was taken into captivity, they're gone. We don't hear anything else about them. So when could he make it glorious?

Dr. Paul Wegner: He tells us. "The people who walk in darkness will see a great light; those who live in a dark land, the light will shine on them. You shall multiply the nation, you shall increase their gladness; they will be glad in your presence as with the gladness of harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil." Then he gives three reasons. The first is in verse 4: "For you shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders." The second: "For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult, and cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning." And the last: "For a child will be born to us." So he gives three good reasons there's going to be greater joy than they've ever had before, and that's when Jesus comes. That's the only time it could be. So chapter 9 has to be the Messiah. Chapter 11 is the same way. It talks about a future person who is going to spring from the dry land of Israel. It calls him the stem of Jesse, and it talks about the wolf lying down with the lamb and those kinds of things. Those have to be talking about a future messianic reign.

Johnny Ova: That makes sense. In the earlier passage about the virgin, the young lady, you're right, there are markers in their own day that you can point to. Here you can't.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Yes. Do you want to see the second part of the book? Again, I'm afraid I'm going to surprise you. I don't think chapter 42 is a messianic prophecy, even though it's picked up in the New Testament. It uses the word pleroo to do it, to fill it up. That's part of the logic. I believe chapter 42 is a guy named Cyrus. Remember, Cyrus is the one who lets the Israelites go back home. "Behold, my servant, whom I uphold; my chosen one in whom my soul delights. I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations. He will not cry out or raise his voice, nor make his voice heard in the street."

Dr. Paul Wegner: That's interesting, because when Cyrus conquered Babylon, he didn't come in as a conquering warrior. He marched in, but by that time the people were cheering him. It's a neat history story. He let them go back and worship Marduk, the god they wanted to serve, and the Babylonian king wasn't letting them do that. So they almost felt like Cyrus was delivering them. Now, it's the next verse that helps me know who he's talking about. "A bruised reed he will not break." So who's the bruised reed in the time of the exile? Any ideas?

Johnny Ova: Would it be the Jewish people?

Dr. Paul Wegner: Yeah. Here's Israel sitting in captivity. They're a bruised reed, and it says a bruised reed he will not break. He's not going to crush them or stomp them out, and the reason is that he's going to let them go back home. The next one: "a dimly burning wick he will not extinguish." A second beautiful picture of Israel sitting in captivity. "He will faithfully bring forth justice. He will not be disheartened or crushed until he has established justice in the earth." So it seems to me this is Cyrus, and God is talking about him as his deliverer. Here's a pagan king who doesn't even know God, and God is using him to deliver his people.

Dr. Paul Wegner: In chapter 45 he's actually called my anointed one, which is the word for Messiah. Let me read 44:28 first. "It is I who says of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and he will perform all my desire. And he declares of Jerusalem, She will be built, and of the temple, Your foundation will be laid." So here's Cyrus, a pagan king, who is going to do exactly what God wants: let them go back and build his temple. If that's not exciting, nothing is. Somebody who doesn't even know what they're doing, and God's got it all under control. Look at the next one: "Thus says the Lord to Cyrus his anointed," so my Messiah, my anointed one, "whom I have taken by the right hand, to subdue nations before him and to loose the loins of kings; to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut." He's talking about opening the gates of Babylon so these people can go back home.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Can I show you one more? These are usually called the servant songs. We just looked at 42, and I told you I don't think 42 is the Messiah. It's Cyrus doing what God wants. But in chapter 49 it changes. This is called the second servant song. "Listen to me, O islands, and pay attention, you peoples from afar. The Lord called me from the womb; from the body of my mother he named me. He has made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand he has concealed me. He has also made me a select arrow and hidden me in his quiver. He said to me, You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will show my glory." Up to that point, I'm agreeing with all the people who think this is Israel. The problem is the next verse shoots that apart. "But I said, I have toiled in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity; yet surely the justice due to me is with the Lord, and my reward with my God. And now says the Lord, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, so that Israel might be gathered to him."

Dr. Paul Wegner: I think what just happened is you've got a change. Israel knows they can't do it. God's gonna bring the Messiah that can actually do it. I don't know of any time Jesus says, I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity, like he's given up. Remember at the Garden of Gethsemane, I remember him saying, not my will but yours be done, but never, I can't do it, God. That doesn't make any sense. So it starts off with Israel, Israel knows they can't do it, and then you've got another call narrative, and the second one is a Messiah who's going to do it. In my mind that makes perfect sense of the passage.

Johnny Ova: Wow, that's good. I like how you pointed out the context of the delineation: here's for them and here's why, and here's where it's probably future and Messiah driven, and here's why. That makes a lot of sense.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Good. There's another servant song in chapter 50, but it's probably the unclearest of any of them. It talks about him being struck and things like that, so it fits Jesus fine. It's just hard to know. It's the shortest one and the unclearest. So even if I leave that one alone, I've got 52 and 53, and that one is clear. I'll start in 52, verse 13. "Behold, my servant will prosper; he will be high and lifted up and greatly exalted. Just as many were astonished at you," and I think that's talking about Israel, "so his appearance was marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men. Thus he will sprinkle many nations; kings will shut their mouths on account of him." That word sprinkle: people have done all they could to make it not be sprinkle. But it's used enough times in Leviticus to know it's a kind of ritual cleansing, and it makes sense. Here's somebody coming to sprinkle nations and cleanse people.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Kings will shut their mouths on account of him. They're shutting their mouths because they can't believe this guy is going to do what he claims to do. And it tells why: "for what had not been told them they will see, and what they had not heard they will understand." They're going to understand that a Messiah is coming to deliver people, and it's stunning them because they can hardly believe it.

Dr. Paul Wegner: One other thing I think is really neat is in chapter 53, verse 10. "But the Lord was pleased to crush him, putting him to grief; if he would render himself as a guilt offering." A guilt offering is really interesting, because it's a sacrifice made when you committed the sin and didn't know it was a sin. Later you find out, and you need a guilt offering to cover that sin. I'm arguing that's exactly what we were before we were believers. We were guilty of sin, but we didn't even know we were guilty. Once we found out we were guilty, we needed a sacrifice, and it's a guilt offering this Messiah is going to offer for us. Then it makes it really clear that he is dying for us. That's why I don't see how this could be Israel. Israel didn't die for us. In fact, they were punished for themselves. We know they were sent into captivity because they deserved the captivity. You mentioned you wanted to hear about some of the prophetic patterns, so those are the ones I wanted to make sure you knew are clearly there.

Johnny Ova: Definitely. It's such a big part of Isaiah and such a big part of the church today, so I wanted to hit on that. Thank you for taking the time to go through it. Very powerful. So, Isaiah for today, to pull this in: what can modern Christians learn from Isaiah about justice, hope and the character of God? And if someone wanted to read Isaiah for the first time with fresh eyes, how would you recommend they start?

Dr. Paul Wegner: I think they need to get an outline first and see where the parts are so they know the sections. What happens is it seems like it just keeps repeating the same stuff. But if you look at the sections, you'll realize it's not actually repeating. It's saying the message, then saying that message again with more detail, then saying it again. If they can see where the breaks are, that will be really helpful. So that's first.

Dr. Paul Wegner: What can they get from Isaiah? In my mind, if they read a little of the history behind these passages, it will make so much more sense to them. Take chapter 6. If they know when King Uzziah died, they'll know when Isaiah was called, and that will make perfect sense. And they'll find out Uzziah was a pretty good king, at least as far as we can tell. Right after him comes Jotham, who's probably okay too. But then you've got Ahaz, a king who can't decide whether he wants to serve God or not. It's at that time God sends Isaiah to tell him, here's a message from God you need to know. That really helps. You can go to a Bible dictionary, and it will often give the history. If you could just read about 740 to about 700, know what the history is, and then read the book of Isaiah, it would make so much more sense.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Then what can you get from it? I've always thought the more you understand it, the better it is. Take those passages we were talking about. Some of them start off with Israel. It even says, my servant Israel, and I tried everything to make that not say that. It does. But then there's that change, a second call narrative, to bring somebody who actually can do it when Israel knows they can't. In my mind that understanding is so brilliant. Here's a message God had for us, written all the way back by Isaiah, and it still makes sense to me today. The nice thing is I actually know Jesus died on the cross. I already know the background, so when I go to these passages looking forward to it, it adds so much more meaning. I even know how it was fulfilled. I know what God did to make that possible for me.

Dr. Paul Wegner: So if you're wondering what it has for us today, get into the book and try to figure out what it was saying to those people at that time, and then what the ramifications are for me. God was telling the Israelites there was still hope for them, even while they were sitting in exile. That can apply to me really easily when I'm in the middle of a difficult situation and wonder if there's ever going to be a way out. God's there. He's no different in the New Testament than he is in the Old, and he can help me get through that issue and know there's hope on the other side. In my mind, that's what Isaiah will tell you.

Johnny Ova: Now everybody watching knows why I called you the great doctor. Dr. Wegner, thank you so much for joining me today. This has been eye-opening and enlightening and so rich.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Good. I hope it wasn't like drinking from a fire hydrant.

Johnny Ova: Not at all. Like I heard on some of the other podcasts you've done, your enthusiasm and the way you explain things is so relatable. It makes it easy and fun to read the Scriptures and listen to you go through them. I can't thank you enough.

Dr. Paul Wegner: Good. Well, thank you for having me.

Johnny Ova: How can people get a hold of you? Do you do anything on social media, or are there ways people can reach you if they have questions or want to follow what you're doing? We're going to list all your books in the episode description.

Dr. Paul Wegner: The first thing is I have an email at Gateway Seminary, gs.edu, and I can answer questions that way. Also, on Gateway Seminary's website there are some podcasts I've been doing going through the Old Testament, and several of them could be helpful and fun to look at.

Johnny Ova: That's wonderful. I hope you'll join me again, because there's so much more I'd love to talk to you about.

Dr. Paul Wegner: It sounds great. Thank you.

Johnny Ova: Thanks again, Dr. Wegner. Have a great day.